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Casey Luskin: Let's restore civility to the debate on evolution and intelligent design

By: Casey Luskin
OpEd Contributor
November 13, 2009

In his new book, “The Greatest Show on Earth,” biologist Richard Dawkins brands those who doubt Charles Darwin’s ideas on evolution as “history deniers,” even stooping to compare them to “Holocaust deniers.”
 
In today’s highly charged political climate, scientific debates over controversial subjects such as climate change and evolution increasingly substitute such overblown rhetoric for careful analysis.
 
We commonly see one side depicting the other as not only wrong, but as unreasonable, irrational, or immoral. As a result, two terms are presently in vogue to describe those who question scientific ideas: “Skeptic” and “Denier.”
 
In practice, the terms have virtually the same meaning – a person who questions an idea - but  vastly different connotations are associated with each. “Skeptic” is used when one wants to sound like a critical thinker, portraying oneself as a rogue academic who bucks the trend in order to break new ground.
 
In contrast, “denier” has all kinds of pernicious connotations and is used to dismiss critics as close-minded, relying on sinister motives to reject some obvious fact.
 
These connotations often slip by unnoticed, subconsciously shaping public perceptions of an issue. They are powerful tools of persuasion in our conformist culture, where everyone wants to be a chic, hip, and intelligent skeptic, but no one wants to be a clumsy, dimwitted, or even worse, morally deficient denier.
 
To be sure there are deniers of certain recent historical facts who hold unquestionably false and abhorrent views.  But evolutionists abuse those connotations when co-opting the denier rhetoric into the debate over intelligent design (ID). 
 
Dawkins’ latest diatribe notwithstanding, examples of this rhetoric abound. In an oped published by The Los Angeles Times in 2007, Chris Mooney and Alan Sokal gloated that, “Antibiotic-resistant bacteria do not spare deniers of evolution.”
 
P.Z. Myers, an outspoken evolutionary biologist, calls pro-ID biochemist Michael Behe an “evolution-denier who claims that there is no evidence for evolution.”
 
I submit that labels like “denier” are meaningless, conversation-stopping terms.  The only information they convey is that the person levying the insult is so supremely intolerant (and unconfident) that they must assert that anyone who disagrees is in denial.  
 
Scientists who challenge Darwin do not discard all of his ideas.  No serious “evolution denier” disagrees that natural selection is a real force, and that antibiotic resistance must be fought by modern medicine.
 
Rather, scientists like Behe observe that the only way to combat anti-biotic resistance is to intelligently design drug cocktails based upon the fact that there are limits to evolutionary change.
 
Behe is not alone in his views. Over 800 Ph.D. scientists have courageously signed a “Scientific Dissent from Darwinism,” declaring that they are “skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life.”
 
Such scientists commonly cite the inability of blind and unguided Darwinian mechanisms to generate complex cellular machinery and the billions of bits of language-based information encoded in our DNA.
 
As one signatory, Stephen C. Meyer, argues in his new book, “Signature in the Cell,” the discovery of the specified digital information in the DNA molecule provides strong grounds for inferring that intelligence played a role in the origin of DNA.
 
In place of rhetorically charged labels like denier, I suggest using more civil terms like “critic” or “skeptic,” even when describing one's opponents. ID proponents are critics of Darwinian evolution.
 
And many evolutionary scientists are skeptics or critics of ID.   Such terms accurately reflect that both sides have serious scientific reasons for their positions.
 
Once the rhetoric is toned down, perhaps we can have a real discussion about the evidence and find out which side’s skepticism is most convincing in this intriguing debate.
 
Casey Luskin is an attorney with the Discovery Institute, working in public policy and legal affairs.



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All comments on this page are subject to our Terms of Use and do not necessarily reflect the views of the Examiner or its staff. Comment box is limited to 250 words.

bobxxxx

Nov 13, 2009

Casey Luskin is a professional liar for Jeebus. He's an idiot and he looks like an idiot. After he gets done spreading lies and trying to dumb down science education to accommodate his childish belief in magic, he complains when people point out the obvious fact he's an uneducated moron. Grow up Luskin or STFU.

 

Nov 13, 2009

As one signatory, Stephen C. Meyer, argues in his new book, “Signature in the Cell,” the discovery of the specified digital information in the DNA molecule provides strong grounds for inferring that intelligence played a role in the origin of DNA.

Translation:

THE MAGIC MAN DID IT.

Luskin, you and your Dishonesty Institute friend Meyer are a disgrace to the human race. Please do the world a favor and drop dead.

 

Anon

Nov 13, 2009

Casey Luskin, a YEC lawyer, believes he is qualified to speak about the validity of the scientific Theory of Evolution?

Only in America.

 

Rich

Nov 13, 2009

I'm pleased Casey is asking for civility. Here's the track record of him and his associates:

http://antievolution.org/invcomp

 

Wesley R. Elsberry

Nov 13, 2009

Where was Luskin's outrage when "Expelled" was the topic, that theatrical release of one long incivility? That's right, he was a major PR booster of the project. Just Google "Luskin Expelled" for many links to gushing prose from Luskin about the movie.

Nor does Luskin seem to have any motivation to do something about the invidious rhetoric otherwise flowing from his Discovery Institute fellows. Have a look here at some of what they get up to: http://antievolution.org/invcomp

Comparisons to Nazis or Soviet communists and other bizarrely unjust and irrelevant rhetorical flourishes abound in ID literature. Want to cherish civility, Casey? Like charity, it begins at home. For hypocrisy, though, Luskin has the formula down pat.

 

Dave Thomas

Nov 13, 2009

Hmm, yes, this is the same Luskin that called for civility for Thanksgiving 2007, even as his uberlords at the Discovery Institute were ridiculing supporters of evolution by making "flash" animations of them flashing their underwear in the Can-Can. And this was on the official 'Expelled' website.

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2007/11/id-movement-dig.html

has the details.

Luskin is an Ultramaroon!

And a hypocrite, of course!

 

Matteo

Nov 13, 2009

If there is any incontrovertible empirical fact that has been established in this debate, it is that the Darwinist crybabies will always, always pile on at the first sign of even mild criticism against their blatantly unscientific fantasizing. They illustrate quite well the aphorism, "If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the facts are not on your side, pound on the table!"

 

Joe McFaul

Nov 13, 2009

"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the facts are not on your side, pound on the table!"


And when you've been caught misrepresenting the facts on multiple occasions, complain about how "uncivil" the other side is.

 

Derwood

Nov 13, 2009

Didn't Luskin's good buddy Bill Dembski, the theologian, once compare a prominant evolutionist's appearance to Frankenstein's monster?

And THESE are the folks whining about civility?

Incredible...

 

Dr. Gary S. Hurd

Nov 13, 2009

Luskin whines that mean scientists say mean things about him and his pals. At the same time he dismisses Prof. Richard Dawkin’s latest book as a diatribe, and accuses scientists of being “supremely intolerant (and unconfident).”

Luskin then makes a plainly ignorant and false statement that there are, “billions of bits of language-based information encoded in our DNA.” This invites derision. What language is that DNA encoding, Mr. Luskin? Urdu? Or maybe King James English?

Luskin has a long history of this sort of hypocrisy which is discussed at Antievolution.org. In fact, he has turned it into a career at the Discovery Institute.

Dr. Gary S. Hurd

 

Gary Larson

Nov 13, 2009

Mr. Luskin - If you are so much in favor of restoring civility to your made up "debate" on evolution, then why don't you allow public comments on your Lying For Jesus Discovery Institute website?

BTW Luskin, there is no actual "debate" about evolution. You and your inane ideological brethren are the only ones that think there is a "debate". Your argument, not debate, is exactly analgous as those that argue for a flat earth, or an earth-centered universe.

Casey Luskin. Please stop lying, because you make The Baby Jesus cry.

 

TBRP

Nov 13, 2009

"I submit that labels like 'denier' are meaningless, conversation-stopping terms. The only information they convey is that the person levying the insult is so supremely intolerant (and unconfident) that they must assert that anyone who disagrees is in denial."

Does this mean that those who use the term "Holocaust Denier" are supremely intolerant (and unconfident)?

What an idiot.

 

Dave

Nov 13, 2009

Quote: "Over 800 Ph.D. scientists have courageously signed a 'Scientific Dissent from Darwinism,'"

"800 Ph.D. scientists" isn't all that impressive when you consider that 1,118 scientists (with Ph.D.'s, a few M.D.s and Ed.D.s.) just named "Steve" (or a variant thereof) have signed onto the National Center for Science Education's statement on evolution. For more information, check out the Project Steve page at http://ncse.com/taking-action/project-steve

 

DaveR

Nov 13, 2009

Civility is reserved for folks who bring intellectual honesty to the debate, even if you don't agree with them. I'm perfectly capable of doing that.

Incivility is the justifiable response to liars.

Sorry, Casey. You represent a bunch of liars, and the evidence for that is deep and wide.

http://antievolution.org/invcomp

 

Kuyper

Nov 13, 2009

People who resent having their beliefs laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs.

 

Blondin

Nov 13, 2009

Aw, poor liddle Casey. Those big mean evolutionists keep pointing out your lies, misrepresentations and misunderstandings.

What a weenie!

 

Greg

Nov 13, 2009

A layer who doesn't even know the actual difference between a skeptic and a denier (not a real word by the way.
A skeptic is a person who doubts, questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions.
A denier (some one who denies something) is someone who outright refuse to believe, recognize or acknowledge something.

Pretty big difference.

 

greylander

Nov 13, 2009

Mr. Luskin failed to provide any reference for his "800 scientists..."

For those interested, here is a link to an excellent discussion of this list:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty1Bo6GmPqM&annotation_id=annotation_119449&feature=iv

 

Anon

Nov 13, 2009

Another delightful Darwinist circle-jerk in progress...

 

Darrin Chandler

Nov 13, 2009

Watching debates on ID vs. evolution I've seen the ID side completely misrepresent the claims of evolutionists. I've seen these things explained to them in no little detail, but in their next appearance they make the same bogus claims (crocoduck, anyone?)

When people engage in willful and continual refusal to understand the other side's argument and instead trot out the same old (answered!) issues then they have earned the label of denier.

 

debunk

Nov 13, 2009

Wait, what?

Casey Luskin is a spokesperson for the DI, which brought us shining examples of civility like "Darwinism leads to Nazism", "Evolution leads to killing people", etc, in the movie Expelled, but they're now upset because people call them deniers?

I can think of a few terms I could use to describe them, and they're a lot more insulting that "deniers". Read up on the Wedge Document or the Kitzmiller vs. Dover trial and you'll think of a few terms yourself.

 

bobxxxx

Nov 13, 2009

Matteo, if you dislike evolution so much, what's your alternative? A god fairy with a magic wand? You got any evidence for that moron?

 

DavidC

Nov 13, 2009

> ...controversial subjects such as climate change and evolution...

There is zero credible, science-based controversy over both of those. They are both as good as scientific fact.

 

Coyltonian

Nov 13, 2009

Stephen C. Meyer's PhD is in the history and philosophy of science. This no more makes him a scientist that a PhD in aesthetics makes you an artist or a PhD in the history of the Nepolionic Wars makes you a soldier. Are teh other 799 signatories equally well qualified.

Dishonest article promoting a dishonest agenda.

Note also please that while not analogue, genetic information is not digital (having 2 values) either as there are 4 different values it may return (too pedantic?)

Maybe we should relable nazis as german patriots, terrorists and insurgents as freedom fighters as these are similar "more civil" and less charged terms.

 

GFA

Nov 13, 2009

Dear Casey,

Why not just ask God if he would mind paying earth a visit for a few weeks and explain to all those thick bilogists how he did it. I am sure the folks at the LHC could do with few pointers as well. A brief visit by his excellence the divine creator would save all those scientists centuries of frustrating work.

At the same time the theologians could ask him if he really hates fagots, and if he rewards suicide bombers with 72 black eyed virgins.

It would be such a splendid occasion.

Regards,

Your ardent admirer GFA

 

ID agnostic

Nov 13, 2009

Typical. The article calls for civility and all the hardcore anti-ID folks come here spewing insults and name calling. Nothing amazes me anymore. For once can you guys just stick to the arguments instead of getting all hyper-emotional about the topic?

 

Nov 13, 2009

Hey Luskin, I have news for you. Calling for "civility" is precisely what holocaust deniers-from the KKK to the president of Iran-do. They are the ones "keeping an open mind" for "alternative ideas", while the pesky holocaust historians demand that everyone think like they do. In making that comparison Dawkins hit the nail right on the head.
Now speaking of your buddy Michael Behe, when are we going to see a peer reviewed publication rather than a misrepresentation of the works of others?

 

Gordy

Nov 13, 2009

'Denier' seems to me like a perfectly fair term to use for someone who ignores or cherry picks the evidence in order to maintain their opposition to an idea. And, as others have pointed out, we didn't hear Casey demanding civility when Expelled came out...

 

bobxxxx

Nov 13, 2009

ID agnostic = MAGIC agnostic.

Provide evidence for magic or STFU.

 

Nov 13, 2009

"For once can you guys just stick to the arguments"

There is no argument (or debate) you bloody uneducated moron. Evolution is a basic scientific fact and your childish belief in ID MAGIC is bull****.

Again, provide evidence for your MAGIC or STFU.

 

Gordy

Nov 13, 2009

"Once the rhetoric is toned down, perhaps we can have a real discussion about the evidence and find out which side’s skepticism is most convincing in this intriguing debate."
OK, Richard Dawkins' "The Greatest Show On Earth" and Jerry Coyne's "Why Evolution Is True" both contain excellent summaries of the evidence for the species we see on earth today having evolved by natural selection. If you really want to discuss the evidence, why not go through one or both of them point by point and explain (with supporting evidence) why you believe them to be incorrect? I won't hold my breath...

 

bobxxxx

Nov 13, 2009

People here should watch a video of Casey Luskin. He has the most stupid and goofy looking face a person could possibly have. And of course he is a moron. That's why he's a professional liar. He's not qualified to do anything else.

 

Pedro

Nov 13, 2009

I love Casey's call for a discussion of the evidence. When will anyone from the DI be producing some evidence (as they promised years ago)?

 

Meisnerman

Nov 13, 2009

Coyltonian

"Digital" means represented in discreet, separate bits of information and does not necessarily imply '2 values'. Binary codes are only one possible kind of digital code. The DNA/RNA sysem is a quaternary code, and it is just as digital as computer binary. The word comes from the latin 'digitus' meaning finger or toe, and the "di" element of the word does imply separation, but not necessarily into only 2 parts.

Oh, and Casy Luskin is egregiously misrepresenting the facts. If the day ever comes that evolution denial offers enough evidence to EARN civil regard (not holding my breath) I'll revisit his request. As things stand, ID is exactly as ridiculous as holcaust denial - which can also produce plenty of degreed and credentialed looneys to whine for respect.

 

Bystander

Nov 13, 2009

I'm seeing lots of atheist histrionics, but not a whole lotta science in these comments.

 

Jared Jammer

Nov 13, 2009

For those of you who are interested in the scientific revolution of Intelligent Design and would like a great read on the silly arguments the science-hating Darwinists use in an attempt at discrediting it, I'd strongly recommend the article: Intelligent Design Opponents Need Better Excuses

 

Jared Jammer

Nov 13, 2009

Another great piece by Casey Luskin and more embarrassing comments from the Liars For Darwin who are trying to keep science in the 19th century, a time when an intelligence-free origin of life and evolution wasn't laughable as it is today.

 

Wheelwright

Nov 13, 2009

There is plenty of powerful scientific evidence against macroevolution that came to light in recent years. For example, Michael Behe's book: "the Edge of Evolution" presented a convincing case against the "power" of natural selection acting upon random mutations. The response from even most respected scientists was predictable: frothing at the mouth mixed up with scorn and ridicule with an occasional "just-so" story thrown in the mix designed to sway the ignorant masses. I expect no better from the Darwinist rabble on this forum and so far I am not disappointed. It clearly proves Luskin is dead on.

 

Jared Jammer

Nov 13, 2009

Another great piece by Casey Luskin and more embarrassing comments from the Liars For Darwin who are trying to keep science in the 19th century, a time when an intelligence-free origin of life and evolution wasn't laughable as it is today.

 

Jar Jam

Nov 13, 2009

Another great piece by Casey Luskin and more embarrassing comments from the Liars For Darwin who are trying to keep science in the 19th century, a time when an intelligence-free origin of life and evolution wasn't laughable as it is today.

 

Jared Jammer

Nov 13, 2009

Legendary astronomer Robert Jastrow has a book on the subject of the Big Bang and scientists who were reluctant or even refused to accept it. The I.D revolution is the modern equivalent. Both cases have materialistic scientists rejecting theories...

 

Jared Jammer

Nov 13, 2009

...not due to a lack of evidence but due to implications both theories have on their preferred (atheist) world-view.

My question is, how long until it's o.k to laugh at designophobics the same way that we laugh at Big Bang-deniers or Flat Earthers?

 

Jonathan Bartlett

Nov 13, 2009

For those of you citing http://antievolution.org/invcomp as evidence of disingenuity, I would point out that most of the examples on there are not uncivil name-calling, but merely looking to history for examples people will be familiar with. The ones which are explicitly attacks are only directed specifically at people who are trying to settle the dispute through political, not intellectual means.

I encourage everyone to look at the given URL, and know that this is the absolute worst that anyone can come up with in the last TWO DECADES related to how ID'ers respond to evolutionists.

And then read the posts attached to this article.

 

Insightful Ape

Nov 13, 2009

Hi Jared, why won't you start by having a peer reviewed paper before giving us grandiose claims?
As far as Behe's book goes. Essentially it is all "arguements from personal incredulity": I don't see how random mutations could have provided the raw material for natural selection to act on. So it didn't happen.
Except for one minor detail: human dog breeders have been artificially selecting animals and plants for centuries. They grew chihuahuas, Dobermans and Dalmatians out of a common ancestor-wolves. Random mutations did provide the raw material for them.
Which is precisely why Behe never submits a publication to a peer review journal. He knows it will get rejected. He takes his case directly to the public-always has, always will.

 

Gordy

Nov 13, 2009

Wheelwright wrote: "There is plenty of powerful scientific evidence against macroevolution that came to light in recent years. For example, Michael Behe's book: "the Edge of Evolution" presented a convincing case against the "power" of natural selection acting upon random mutations."
Even if we were to accept Behe's case (which has been refuted), evidence against natural selection does not constitute evidence for ID. The fact that you think it does illustrates your poor grasp of what constitutes scientific evidence.
So, what exactly is the scientific evidence *for* ID? As far as I'm aware, there isn't any.

 

Insightful Ape

Nov 13, 2009

One more thing, Jared. Why is it that Luskin doesn't get around to any of lines of evidence laid out by Dawkins, just his tone? Could it be that he has no clue about the subject?
Nice neologism, though, "designophobia". Reminds me of "islamophobia". Straw man attacks, in both cases.

 

RTcrew

Nov 14, 2009

Bobxxxx 4 president, call it as you see Bob , excellent.

 

ID agnostic

Nov 14, 2009

"Provide evidence for magic or STFU"

Evidence of what? Did you not notice my name is ID AGNOSTIC. I don't need to prove that which I'm agnostic about. But thanks for proving my point about incivility big shot. All talk. NO SUBSTANCE!!

"There is no argument (or debate) you bloody uneducated moron. Evolution is a basic scientific fact and your childish belief in ID MAGIC is bull"

Priceless, you don't even have a basic grasp of what ID is and yet you call me an "uneducated moron". For your information I fully accept evolution as a scientific fact and so do ID theorists like Michael Behe and Michael Denton, ironically enough. ID if fully compatible with the belief in evolution. What it's fundamentally incompatible with is the Darwinian mechanisms and like it or not, THERE IS SCIENTIFIC DEBATE GOING ON ABOUT THE MERITS OF THOSE MECHANISMS.

So instead of running your ignorant mouth off, please say something intelligent.

 

notbob

Nov 14, 2009

bobxxxx you crack me up, you obviously feel quite threatened. The reason you and your *kind* complain about misrepresentation is because you are unable to *consider* any criticisms. I suspect you've been blinded by your metaphysical presuspositions. Yes they are clear for all to see. Thank you for illustrating Casey's point.

PS Darwinian evolution cannot survive the science of the 21st century.

 

Jeffrey L. Whitledge

Nov 14, 2009

Sorry, Luskin, you don't get to be called a "skeptic". You haven't earned the honor of that title. You are just a denier. Until scientific evidence causes you to change your mind on some preconceived notion, you don't get to be called a skeptic. Until you submit your own ideas to the same scrutiny that you submit others' ideas to, you don't get to be called a skeptic. Nice try.

 

RTcrew

Nov 14, 2009

"PS Darwinian evolution cannot survive the science of the 21st century."

Of course you will have scientific evidence for this ridiculous statment?
god done did it will not cut it as scientific.

 

Gordy

Nov 14, 2009

ID agnostic > What do you mean by "Darwinian mechanisms"?

 

Mike.

Nov 14, 2009

A lawyer...
... member of discovery institute...
... defender of invisible friend.

Th poor man doesn't have much going for him - show him some sympathy.

 

t1er

Nov 14, 2009

Once the Intelligent Design proponents start to actually practice science, I'm sure evolution proponents will be more than willing to have a debate.

But as long as this whole ID movement is just a political smoke screen, there will be no need for a rational debate.

 

mudsoupman

Nov 14, 2009

As usual, the Darwinists have produced nothing but a lot of venom. And the more you guys spout this 'it's magic' or 'the benevolent sky daddy did it' garbage the more convinced I am that you either don't understand what the ID movement is proposing or you are simply intellectualy dishonest. We can detect intelligent patterns in nature; what we can't detect is randomness. ID doesn't affirm or deny common descent. ID does deny the atheistic religious proposition, 'randomness is responsible for everything.'

 

Ashton Black

Nov 14, 2009

Mudsoupman. If you think that is the case then you don't understand quantum physics. Probability IS responsible for everything. Also, back to biology evolution is randomness with a form of filter called natural selection. That is the fact behind all the evidence. *shrug* It matters not. ID has been tested in the science area and the courts of law. Both reject ID as science. Debate over.

 

Gordy

Nov 14, 2009

Evolution by natural selection is not a random process. It is the opposite. It is the non-random survival (and reproductive success) of different phenotypes.
Why would anyone expect such a process to produce randomness? Unless of course they didn't understand it... or were deliberately misrepresenting it.

 

Alan

Nov 14, 2009

It's rare to see such an immediate and in-your-face corroboration of a thesis by its opponents. Luskins claim that Darwinian biggottry and indignation have reached hysterical levels was immediately met with an "hysterical" barrage of "Darwinian biggottry and indignation" (see comments below).

It is analagous to an article attacking religious extremism being met with a barrage of threats and insults from a group of religious extremists. Perhaps the religion of Darwinism really is in the process of developing its own militant cult.

 

JW

Nov 14, 2009

How can you be a denier of evolution if you do not deny evolution? ID criticises the mechanism, not the pattern. It then seems like a fair question to be called a critic instead of a denier. Fair questions deserve fair answers, but many comments hardly classify as fair. Actually, many comments do not deal with Luskins statement at all.
I find this completely understandable in the ligth of atheists who fight and rage for the intellectual justification of their worldview. With the current state of science they need random processes for their worldview. They NEED the mechanism that ID critisises. Hence critics are personally attacked in any thinkable (il)literate way. This has nothing to do with following the evidence wherever it leads.

 

astro-sharp

Nov 14, 2009

In his brilliant “The Greatest Show on Earth”, Richard Dawkins (as always) patiently and careful explains his points. The term "history deniers" is reserved for those who still believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. To believe this in today's world *IS* the same as denying the Holocaust, and so the term is a very reasonable one. Luskin is guilty of not reading the book, or deliberately misrepresenting the truth. I suspect both.

 

Gordy

Nov 14, 2009

JW wrote "ID criticises the mechanism, not the pattern."

What do you mean by the mechanism? I've asked this already on this thread, but nobody answered.

 

Max

Nov 14, 2009

Uh, what debate? And since when is science a debate anyway? Still waiting for any actual research on Intelligent Design. Waiting... waiting... waiting. Still waiting for them to define the mechanism as well. Without that it's nothing but an idle musing, not scientific.

 

DaveR

Nov 14, 2009

"I find this completely understandable in the ligth of atheists who fight and rage for the intellectual justification of their worldview"

Per usual, when pressed on the evidence issue, the IDiots run from a the "scientific debate" mentioned in the opening post and hide behind religious arguments.

Here's a clue-by-four. Evolutionary theory is not atheism, even though ID is a religious doctrine. Don't stay confused, please.

 

Brian

Nov 14, 2009

"Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed" - Francis Crick

Crick thought life looked designed. It took ideology for him to deny it was. The inference is not a hard reach.

I'm still waiting for the tiny AA powered motor of evolution to demonstrate that it is capable of the V8, 800 horsepower performance claimed by its believers.

"Our technical literature contains many facile verbal arguments—little more than plausible 'just-so' stories." - Steven J Gould

 

Brian

Nov 14, 2009

"What do you mean by the mechanism?" - Random mutation, natural selection. ID doesn't deny natural selection but the random mutation part doesn't do much but damage. Instead it amounts to wear & tear instead of anything that can actually build.

 

Joe G

Nov 14, 2009

Instead of just providing the scientific data which would support their position and falsify ID all the anti-IDist crybabies can do is spew more hatred.

However seeing that there isn't any scientific data that supports their claims spewing hatred is all they have.

For example we have plenty of evidence for mutations causing malfunctions.

But we don't have any da=ta that demonstrates that mutations can accumulate in such a way as to give rise to new protein machinery and new body plans.

And we don't have any way to test the premise that an accumulation of genetic accidents can do the trick.

So as opposed to mouthing off all the evolutionitwits have to do is to actually start supporting their claims!

But they cannot.

 

Gordy

Nov 14, 2009

Brian > So ID agrees with evolution by natural selection, but disagrees that the source of genetic variety is random mutation? Thanks for explaining that.
Random mutation usually has no effect on phenotype. In some cases it can cause negative effects, but in others it can be advantageous. These advantageous mutations can spread rapidly in a population. The development of antibiotic resistance in bacteria is a well studied example of this.

 

Ian

Nov 14, 2009

You can see that all the ID supporters have never read a science book in their life. Perhaps critical thinking is beyond their ability.

 

Gage

Nov 14, 2009

I know Casey Luskin personally, and he is entirely civil, reasoned and quite informed on the issues. The negative commenters here are perfect examples of what Casey's editorial is all about. And there is nothing dishonest about the Discovery Institute; comments to the contrary are mostly atheist paranoia.

 

DaveW

Nov 14, 2009

I doubt that those who condemn Luskin in this forum could defend their position on this topic in a scientific manner.

I found Dr. Gary Hurd's question regarding the language of DNA to be a very good example of a red-herring. Unable to refute Luskin's assertions, Hurd must resort to a ridiculous attack on an the analogy between DNA and language that is frequently used by biologists.

Let's see, proteins (concepts) are expressions of genetic information (words) which are encoded as sequences of amino acids (letters). Seems reasonable to use the language analogy to me. In any case, is there any doubt that the information encoded in DNA and the machinery that translates and updates DNA is one of the most fantastic and fascinating information systems in existence?

 

DaveW

Nov 14, 2009

Ian - I can understand your frustration regarding those who advocate or are sympathetic to the proposition of intelligent design.

However, your statement that ID supporters have never read a science book is clearly false. Many former Darwinian evolutionists have written books in support of ID. Dr. Michael Behe is just one.

Perhaps you could provide a more thoughtful and defensible rebuke of Luskin. If not, you are just confirming his main argument.

 

DaveW

Nov 14, 2009

Dr Hurd - In addition to your absurd attack on Luskin's analogy, I also must call you out for your defense of Dawkins. Dawkins is not a trained or credentialed evolutionary biologist, let alone one who is an authority on the subject of molecular evolution. Yet, he regularly attacks in a most despicable manner anyone who would question the power of Darwinian mechanisms to account for development of life.

Regarding the origin of life, Dawkins acknowledges that life could have been created, as there is no plausible naturalistic explanation to date.

As a Dr, you have a tremendous responsibility to educate and clarify. Instead, you choose to obfuscate and denigrate others.

 

John the Skeptic

Nov 14, 2009

@Brian: "ID doesn't deny natural selection but the random mutation part doesn't do much but damage. Instead it amounts to wear & tear instead of anything that can actually build."

Tell that to Richard Lenski, who documented E. coli bacteria, though random mutation and natural selection, developed the new ability to metabolize citrate.

 

LeeLeeOne

Nov 14, 2009

DaveW:

Your comment on Nov 14 2009, is a joke, right?

 

Joe G

Nov 14, 2009

Gordy,

The debate is about mechanisms.

In one "corner" we have ID which says that at leasy some processes are directed- ie target oriented.

In the other "corner" we have the blind watchmaker thesis- natural selection is blind only "acts" on what exists, no planning and all mutations are genetic accidents.

And both Lenski's results and anti-biotic resistance fall well within the YEC claim of "variations within a Kind".

IOW if that is all you have then you have nothin'.

Ya see "evolution" isn't being debated.

And evidence for Common Descent is not evidence for a mechanism.

 

First Ade

Nov 14, 2009

There are some histrionics here, from both sides.

I think, so long as we are talking scientifically here, the question should be: "If Intelligent Design accounts for our origins and current status as a species, what is your evidence?"



 

jesus slaves

Nov 14, 2009

Joe G:
"Instead of just providing the scientific data which would support their position and falsify ID all the anti-IDist crybabies can do is spew more hatred."

Exactly! Evolutionists are crybabies, they have no evidence, nobody listens to them in scientific community, nobody wants to teach evolution, they try to force their theory into schools via courts but lose one trial after another, they just cry on internet forums and make anti-anti-evolution videos on youtube ... ehm .. wait, what?

 

Open Minded Free Thinker

Nov 14, 2009

What a bunch of ignorant pansies. Luskin has the brain power of the lot of you combined, and all you do is attack the man when he invites civility? When you fundie Darwinists get a few brain cells of common sense between your ears, and some decency, then you might have something to contribute to the issue.

It's no wonder the public doesn't buy Darwinism. Not only is it unbelievable, it's also represented by a bunch of immature bullies.

 

jesus slaves

Nov 14, 2009

Open Minded Free Thinker:
"It's no wonder the public doesn't buy Darwinism."

And that's what matters. When you add up IQ's of all non-scientists it's much higher than IQ of those evolutionary "scientists"! They should listen to us, not to each other ...

 

Joe G

Nov 14, 2009

The evidence for ID is in biology textbooks.

Just look at transcription and translation with its proof-reading, error-corection - the ribosome is a genetic compiler.

Both proof-reading and error-correction require knowledge.

You actually believe that blind molecules, cobbled together by a blind processes can do such a thing?

We have direct experience with agencies constructing processes that do that.

 

Brian

Nov 14, 2009

Gordy > "In some cases it can cause negative effects, but in others it can be advantageous" - In almost all cases it causes negative effects. To the point where even supposed "neutral" changes can only classified as such because the damage isn't readily apparent.

I'm guessing you're referring to antibiotic resistance. Change in that case is comparable to trench warfare over arms race. A bridge is burned to keep out an invader and it does but you just lost a bridge. Without the antibiotic present, those without the mutation dominate.

 

Brian

Nov 14, 2009

"You can see that all the ID supporters have never read a science book in their life. Perhaps critical thinking is beyond their ability." - Never mind the biochemists and microbiologists. ID is an exercise in critical thinking since it goes against the apparent propaganda.

I.E. - Ambulocetus had a hole in its skull. Evolutionist: "that makes it an ancestor to whales. The hole obviously traveled upward and a breathing apparatus formed. Nature is so clever and inventive, even though it is mindless and without goals. It just happened over time."

ID: "How many changes are necessary to make it a whale? Are those changes possible? Empirically, what justifies the belief that it is possible when we only see mutations degrade? Where are the transitional species? Where did the new information come from? Intelligence is the only known source for new information. Because information doesn't 'just happen' ID is the best inference."

 

Brian

Nov 14, 2009

Getting back on topic:

Evolutionist makes a claim. IDist points out the claim as non-sequitur and the criticism makes sense. Provides peer review where REAL peer review is lacking. Asks for details and demonstration. Evolutionist says "You're an IDiot, ignorant and anti-science. It's just so obvious that it happened and you don't get it."

 

Brian

Nov 14, 2009

John the Skeptic> Lenski's long experiment didn't create anything. Citrate metabolism was an existing mechanism. A pathway opened to allow it in but there was no demonstration that this resulted in a more fit species. No tests on how they do outside the lab. Which would dominate in "normal" conditions?

 

DaveW

Nov 14, 2009

LeeLeeOne - nope. Do you have a point to make?

 

Brian

Nov 14, 2009

John the Skeptic> Another way to interpret Lenski...Citrate metabolism mechanism is in place even though the organism doesn't usually metabolize citrate. The mechanism is there in anticipation of a day when it is necessary. That day comes in Lenski's lab and another mechanism, triggered by Lenski's unlikely environment, opens a pathway to the existing but usually unused citrate metabolizer.

An intelligent designer put in a back-up system that was put into action by extreme conditions.

 

Brian

Nov 14, 2009

John the Skeptic > More Lenski thoughts...Over 40,000 generations were grown. How much change was necessary to open the pathway to an existing mechanism?

How much time is necessary to get 40,000 generations of a higher organism like say a fish? If it takes that many generations to get what I suspect is a minor change, is there enough time in the universe to accumulate enough positive changes to transform a fish into a frog or what have you?

What about the interferences that occur naturally with sexual reproduction? You know hybridization that causes changes to revert. Dead-end changes. Environmental changes that render new features detriments.

Expand that over the animal kingdom and you will realize how fanciful a belief in "the power of undirected change" is. What are the chances of raising enough money to build New York city by playing dice and starting with 2 bucks?

 

Federico Kereki

Nov 14, 2009

"ID proponents are critics of Darwinian evolution. And many evolutionary scientists are skeptics or critics of ID. Such terms accurately reflect that both sides have serious scientific reasons for their positions."

This is completely ridiculous! From the fact that both groups criticize the other, you conclude that both sides have "serious scientific reasons for their positions"? The only reason for ID is "God did it" -- and that's scientific?

 

Brian

Nov 14, 2009

Let's grant that you can raise the money playing dice. You now you have a single cell. It may reproduce, may not. May immediately die out from condition change. You would have to repeat that amazing dice feat innumerably.

Don't you see how absurd the evolution premise is? It almost sounds "magical".

 

Brian

Nov 14, 2009

Federico > "The only reason for ID is 'God did it' -- and that's scientific?" ID proponents are usually the last ones to mention God and evolutionists the first.

IDer "that's improbable BECAUSE it assumes xyz"

Evo "God doesn't exist"

IDer "how can x lead to y when we observe z?"

Evo "You're an IDiot. Who designed the designer?"

Etc, etc, etc

 

Felix

Nov 14, 2009

Brian: you do realize that if you end up with one cell, you will also simultaneously have many clusters of molecules which are very much similar to that cell, through the same process? There are billions of billions of molecules doing their chemical stuff all the time. So what if the first cell dies off? You'll have residue and plenty of material and energy one step away from becoming another cell.
There's nothing magical about it.

 

Felix

Nov 14, 2009

Brian,
it may take 40,000 generations, and that is not the slightest problem for the calculation. What you ignore is the simple and obvious fact that a generation does not consist of one individual after the other, but thousands and tens of thousands reproducing at the same time. One successful change means more of that change in the next generation.
So yes, there is plenty of time in the universe to evolve a complete chain of life several times.

 

Felix

Nov 14, 2009

Brian, you write: "An intelligent designer put in a back-up system that was put into action by extreme conditions."

Wrong. There was no design. The ability arose through mutation alone. It was not put there.

 

Felix

Nov 14, 2009

Joe G, research Nobel laureate Thomas Cech. He demonstrated how molecules can do exactly that, and how they can develop.

So yeah, blind processes can do such a thing.

I was able to find out about that doing a simple search. Were you just lazy, or ignorantly thinking to be able to poke holes into science that has been done?

 

Felix

Nov 14, 2009

First Ade:
"I think, so long as we are talking scientifically here, the question should be: "If Intelligent Design accounts for our origins and current status as a species, what is your evidence?"

Good point. Let me save the creationists some work and answer for them: "Something that works without being dependant upon physical evidence is logically more efficient than something that works only naturalistically. Magic is independant of such constraining physicality. Since magic leaves no evidence, and there is no evidence for ID claims, and the most efficient proposed process is logically the most likely to be correct, magic is logically the correct answer."

 

DaveW

Nov 14, 2009

ID is compatible with Biblical creation, but it is also compatible with other theories or ideas of creation. For example, lets say that a group of molecular biologists one day synthesize life in the lab. While doing so without any input from existing life forms is monumentally unlikely, it could happen. If it did, we'd call that life intelligently designed. Now, based on what we know today, it is far more likely that we'll see intelligently designed life, than we will see spontaneously generated life come out of some chemical soup.

 

Gage

Nov 14, 2009

Felix: As far as some mixture of chemicals making a cell, you have plenty of imagination but you suffer from a lack of chemical understanding. Professor George Whitesides of Harvard University, one of the most knowledgable chemists in the world on origin-of-life chemistry and a self
-proclaimed atheist, said recently that he has "no idea how life got started". Since you seem to have an idea, maybe you should email him and let him know how you see this happening.

 

mndarwinist@gmail.com

Nov 14, 2009

It is a little pathetic of the creator of universe if he never gives us any direct evidence of our existence and just leaves is to us to create Him out of gaps in our knowledge.
FYI the fact of evolution is not about the origin of life. It is about the diversity of that arouse afterwards. The origin of life likely was an act of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

 

Gordy

Nov 14, 2009

Joe G wrote: "The debate is about mechanisms.

In one "corner" we have ID which says that at leasy some processes are directed- ie target oriented.

In the other "corner" we have the blind watchmaker thesis- natural selection is blind only "acts" on what exists, no planning and all mutations are genetic accidents.

And both Lenski's results and anti-biotic resistance fall well within the YEC claim of "variations within a Kind".

IOW if that is all you have then you have nothin'."

I assure you, that isn't all we have! I was just trying to establish that not all mutations are negative in their effect.

From an ID point of view, what is the evidence for some processes being directed or target oriented? What does ID have to say about how these processes are directed? In other words, what is your proposed mechanism for such direction?

 

Gordy

Nov 14, 2009

Brian wrote: "I'm guessing you're referring to antibiotic resistance."
Pretty safe guess since I explicitly said as much!

Brian: "Change in that case is comparable to trench warfare over arms race. A bridge is burned to keep out an invader and it does but you just lost a bridge. Without the antibiotic present, those without the mutation dominate."
Precisely! The presence of an antibiotic constitutes a change in the bacteria's environment. Only those bacteria that can survive this change (i.e. those with an adaptive antibiotic-resistant mutation) will go on to reproduce. The 'mutation' thereby becomes much more prevalent in successive generations. This is how evolution by natural selection works!

 

NZer

Nov 14, 2009

Wow, Bobxxxxx is at it again. He posts his hate on lots of websites as if that is his main purpose in this life.

Hey Bobxxxxx, why not head over to

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/casey-luskin-editorial/

and actually argue your case rather than spu forth your ignorance and hatred -- or are reacting like the poor little doggie that is cornered by arguments that he cannot refute, and instead resorts to snarling and biting?

Actually, you prove Luskin's point don't you -- about name calling and intolerance.

 

Evelyn Lushin

Nov 15, 2009

The "Science" profesionals are stupid. They will not even debate me and my theory of how they really built the pyramids with Unicorn poop.

 

DaveW

Nov 15, 2009

Lets summarize what everyone can agree upon:

1. Life changes over time. This is the "fact" of evolution.
2. There are a few known mechanisms of evolution. One of them, Darwinian evolution, or Neo-Darwinian evolution is most commonly taught because of its simplicity and elegance.
3. Darwinian evolution is based on natural selection acting upon random mutations.
4. Evolution does not explain the origin of life.
5. Origin of life research is in a state of disarray. Life is far too complex for any plausible naturalistic explanation.
6. ID posits that certain features of life are best explained by intelligent causes.
7. ID is compatible with evolution. Some aspects of life may have been designed, while others evolved.
8. Politicians and others use false dichotomies to divide and conquer.

Questions?

 

Gordy

Nov 15, 2009

Dave W > Thanks. Two questions:

"2. There are a few known mechanisms of evolution. One of them, Darwinian evolution, or Neo-Darwinian evolution is most commonly taught because of its simplicity and elegance."
What are the others?

"6. ID posits that certain features of life are best explained by intelligent causes."
This is the point that most scientists would take issue with. Why does ID posit this? What is the evidence that suggests this? Natural selection alone is enough to explain the diversity of life we see on Earth today. Intelligent design or intervention does not appear to have been necessary, so why posit it?

Incidentally, getting back to Casey Luskin's article about civility, given that ID apparently accepts the principle of evolution by natural selection, why are scientists regularly accused of Nazism for believing the same thing?

 

Disco Stu

Nov 15, 2009

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_Institute

 

Elise

Nov 15, 2009

Hmmm. I dunno, Casey. I don't think 'denier' is that charged. Sure, it has some connotations, but you can't avoid all such terms in conversation.

I mean, what about the connotations of 'stooping' and 'diatribe'?

I just can't get excited about the use of the term 'deniers' it's too mild and objective, unlike, say, 'idiots'.

 

sarareid28

Nov 15, 2009

Intelligent design is the assertion that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." It is a modern form of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God, but one which avoids specifying the nature or identity of the designer. The idea was developed by a group of American creationists who reformulated their argument in the creation-evolution controversy to circumvent court rulings that prohibit the teaching of creationism as science.

l-carnitine

 

Jeffrey Shallit

Nov 15, 2009

You know a call for "more civility" is completely phony when the person who issues it only cites examples from one side of the debate.

That's the case with this opinion piece by Casey Luskin, spokesman for the Discovery Institute.

Luskin lists three examples of incivility, and all of them are from the pro-science, anti-creationist side. He fails to cite a single example of incivility from a creationist, even though there are many examples to choose from. As Wesley Elsberry has documented, Luskin's friends routinely compare evolutionary biologists to Nazis, communists, the Taliban, and Satan. Luskin himself has labeled materialists an "ominous force" that will "consume" people. William Dembski proudly sponsored an animation that used fart noises to make fun of Judge Jones, who decided the Kitzmiller v. Dover case.

No one is going to be fooled by this dishonest posturing.

 

Jeffrey Shallit

Nov 15, 2009

You know calls for "civility" are phony when they list examples from one side only. All of his criticism is directed to the pro-science side.

Although Luskin's friends routinely compare evolutionary biologists to communists, the Taliban, and worse, he doesn't see fit to mention this. No one is going to be fooled by this dishonest posturing.

 

Joe G

Nov 15, 2009

Gordy,

You don't have any scientific data which demonstrates that mutations can accumulate in such a way as to give rise to novel protein machinery and novel body plans.

Felix,

I have read Cech.

He doesn't help you.

To Jeffrey Shallit,

Yours is not the pro-science side.

Yours is the pro-censorship side.

You can't even muster a testable hypothesis pertaining to an accumulation of genetic accidents- your proposed mechanism of evolution.

 

Joe G

Nov 15, 2009

Feix,

As far as Cech knows those molecules are programmed to do what they do.

Ya see if we just take the chemical constituents- that is outside of a living organism- they do nothing.

They do not transcribe, they do not translate.

And that show tell us that the same chemicals inside of living organisms are different somehow.

They are different because they contain software that tells them what to do, and when to do it.

Not that I would expect you to understand that.

 

DaveW

Nov 15, 2009

Hi Gordy:

Other mechanisms of evolution include: (1) intercellular DNA transfer (2) Genetic Recombination (3) Retrotransposition and others.

ID does not necessarily dispute the role of natural selection. But, did the underlying machinery of the cell appear via that process? Probably not, based on what science knows today.

For example, the mechanisms of DNA replication and protein synthesis appear to have been designed due to the inter-relationships between the various parts, and there is no plausible naturalistic explanation for their origin.

 

DaveW

Nov 15, 2009

Hi Gordy:

The sociological question you raise is interesting and controversial. However, there are connections between Darwin, Nazism and the eugenics movement in the US in the early part of the 20th century. Why is this different? Well, ID'ers generally believe that life was created with a purpose and that the creator (whomever that is) cares about us. On the other hand, a significant number of prominent Darwinists (WIll Provine, one example) believe that life arose naturalistically and that there is no ultimate meaning to life, no right and wrong, and so on.

Many mass murderers for example, cite Darwinism as the rationale for their crimes. (Columbine killers, are just one of many examples)

 

DaveW

Nov 15, 2009

Hi Gordy:

Many people may write saying that religious people have killed more in the name of religion than non-religionists. Unfortunately for them, this is not true. In the 20th century alone, the number of murders in the name of atheism (China, Russia, Germany) exceed the total number of religiously motivated killings by a factor of at least 1000:1.

 

Gordy

Nov 15, 2009

DaveW > OK, so by "other mechanisms of evolution" you meant alternatives to random mutation as sources of genetic diversity. In fact they are all taught alongside random mutation, certainly at university level.
I asked the question because I though you were proposing alternatives to natural selection! Sorry for the misunderstanding.

As for abiogenesis, that's not part of evolutionary theory. It's true that we don't know how life got started, but we do know a lot about how it evolved after it got started. I think it's important to keep that distinction clear.

 

Gordy

Nov 15, 2009

DaveW > The Nazi argument is a tired, inaccurate and distasteful one. I'm not here to debate religion, the topic is the theory of evolution versus intelligent design. You seem to be saying that it's OK to associate scientists with Nazism because science equates to atheism. Get a grip. That's beneath you.

 

cc

Nov 15, 2009

Wow. I'm sure there must be some Darwin supporters who can debate with civility, but apparently not very many of them read the Examiner. I don't know whether it is amusing or horrifying that ad hominem attacks were the first out of the gate...and pretty much the only type of reply posted thereafter! Whatever happened to "engaging the argument?"

 

tucanofulano

Nov 15, 2009

The theory of evolution is certainly as valid as the theory of gravity, and easier to prove. There is no arguement, and one really ought to avoid having intellectual arguement with unarmed priests or others. What is, IS.

 

DaveW

Nov 15, 2009

Gordy:

Regarding Nazism, you brought up the topic, and there are good and bad arguments on both sides with respect to the influences of Darwinism on eugenics as practiced by the Nazis and others.

I never said that it was OK to associate scientists with Nazism. Those are your words.

Now, if you feel that Darwinism did not influence the eugenics movements of the Nazis and others, feel free to state your case. Like I said, there are good and bad arguments on both sides.



 

DaveW

Nov 15, 2009

Gordy: Thank you for acknowledging that evolution is mute on the origin of life. But, abiogenesis is just one possibility. It is also possible that life was created. This is where ID is different from evolutionary theories. ID includes origin of life as well as its development once life got started.

The additional mechanisms I enumerated are not widely discussed because they suggest design rather than naturalism.

 

DaveW

Nov 15, 2009

tucanofulano> You are wrong. The theory of gravity is far more established than the theory of evolution. And, science never proves anything, it is always tentative.

But, I could be wrong. I can easily confirm a significant part of the theory of gravity by dropping objects from various heights, weighing the objects, distance traveled, time to reach the ground and so on.

No such simple demonstration or evidence exists for Darwinian evolution, that I am aware of.

 

Bryan Thomas

Nov 15, 2009

It is sad that so many people buy into the theory of evolution with such a wholehearted faith to it. There are many flaws in the theory of evolution and in fact it has no answer to the question of ultimate origin. The I.D. movement simply wants to open up the discussion to other possibilities. Quit being so closed minded. I am willing to discuss and look at the answers that evolution may have to offer but to take the theory so far as to be completely closed off to any other possibilities is just foolishness. We will never advance in our search for our origin if we are not willing to have the conversations needed to do so. If you accept evolution you do so by FAITH. Quit pretending like your view is the only one with an validity. You cannot prove it so be willing to search for possibilities outside of it. Your "slander arguments" are not arguments at all but just poor attempts to avoid the issue. Let us be willing to think through all possibilities.

 

Ymir The Frost Ogre

Nov 15, 2009

It is also possible that life was created. This is where ID is different from evolutionary theories.

Yes, please explore every (infinite) possibility, get back to us when you have some verifiable, testable evidence.

 

Joe G

Nov 15, 2009

Gordy,

If living organisms did not arise from non-living matter via unguided, blind processes, there would be no reason to infer such processes had/ has sole dominion over its subsequent evolution.

That is why origins is key to the discussion.

 

Bio-Major

Nov 15, 2009

Evolution = we have the proof, we win.

 

Brian

Nov 15, 2009

Felix > Wow. You just glossed over a lot. That's why evolution has been such a tough sell. It provides a populist just-so story while glossing over the "magic" details.

The magic story of how matter self organizes into life. That can't be a given.

 

Brian

Nov 15, 2009

There is NO evidence whatsoever for what you claimed.

 

DaveW

Nov 15, 2009

Many of the comments here take issue with the hypothesis of design. Some people don't even want the hypothesis discussed or don't even consider it to be scientific.

But, it is an interesting question. How would we determine if something was designed? If you were an alien visiting earth after all life was gone, and you encountered a Mustang GT, how would you know that it was designed, rather than a product of natural mechanisms?

Lastly, design and evolution are not mutually exclusive. Darwinian mechanisms fall far short as explanations for the origin of complex biological systems such as protein synthesis. Other mechanisms that we know of appear to have been designed due to the integrated manner in which they function.

 

DaveW

Nov 15, 2009

People here value facts. So here's one more: Virtually all branches of modern science, and to a large extent, science itself, were founded by devout Christians.

 

GFA

Nov 15, 2009

I've just watched:-

Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial

(http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-404729062613200911#)

It is interesting to see what a Republican Judge said about ID after a 6 week trial.

 

Truth-Seeker

Nov 15, 2009

The abusive comments on this board are sad and pathetic. Beyond the abuse, the common thread I see is ignorance of the other side. We all know the fundamentals of Darwinism, we all learned it in high school, and its been pumped into us by society ever since. It takes intellectual honestly to research and educate yourself on the other side however, as I have. The comments on here demonstrate that very little reading of the ID literature has taken place. Why? Because most posters here are not seekers of truth. No one that is would respond with such venom. They have already found a truth that suits their lifestyle, so they surrender their critical thinking to remain in the "matrix". Start thinking for yourself, ask questions, and get off the mainframe nipple, then decide which is right. Your opinion may remain the same, but your respect level will go up tremendously, and the sophomoric insults will seem inappropriate.

 

Gordy

Nov 15, 2009

DaveW > I asked why scientists are regularly accused of Nazism for believing in evolution by natural selection, when ID proponents apparently accept this as fact. You attempted to justify it by saying that it's different for ID because "ID'ers generally believe that life was created with a purpose and that the creator (whomever that is) cares about us." It sounded to me like you thought the links ID proponents draw between scientists and Nazis were justifiable. What would you say to all the Christians who believe in the theory of evolution?

Just for the record, do you think it's OK to call scientists Nazis for believing in evolution by natural selection?

 

Gordy

Nov 15, 2009

DaveW > By the way: "...the creator (whomever that is) cares about us" ? You're going to have a hard time trying to establish that scientifically! What is the evidence for this? Or is it a religious rather than scientific belief?

 

Gordy

Nov 15, 2009

DaveW wrote: "The additional mechanisms I enumerated are not widely discussed because they suggest design rather than naturalism."

Not true. Those other mechanisms are taught and they do not suggest design. Here's your list with links:

(1) intercellular DNA transfer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_gene_transfer

(2) Genetic Recombination
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_recombination

(3) Retrotransposition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrotransposon

What is it about any of these that suggests design? And why are you claiming that they're not taught?

 

Gordy

Nov 15, 2009

Brian wrote: "You survived death by losing a hand. I agree, that's how evolution works. You missed the point that those that still have the "bridge" are actually more fit overall."
There's no such thing as "overall" fitness, only fitness for the environment you happen to find yourself in. That's why we see different forms of life in different environments. Fitness is relative; a balance of costs and benefits.

A good example of this in humans is sickle cell anaemia. It can have adverse consequences for health, but provides resistance to malaria so it is prevalent in areas where malaria is also prevalent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle-cell_disease

 

Nov 15, 2009

Hi Gordy>

(1) Those who believe that life has no ultimate meaning are more likely to practice eugenics than those who believe that life has meaning and value. History supports this and I cited various examples. Nazism is compatible with the Darwinian metaphysics, but that does not make Darwinists Nazis. Nazis used Darwinist explanations to justify their actions. Does that make sense?

Scientists by the way, don't "believe" in theories, the accept them based on the ability of the theory to predict or model specific phenomena that can be observed.

 

DaveW

Nov 15, 2009

Gordy>
(2) Taken out of context. It was not meant as a scientific claim.
(3) These mechanisms do not rely on random changes in an organisms DNA caused by transcription errors. If a mechanism that can change DNA in a non-harmful way is operating as intended, that suggests that the cell has a way of modifying its DNA in response to environmental factors. These kinds of mechanisms are much more suggestive of design than random mutation.

When did I say they are not being taught? I said they are not widely discussed. Most people only know about the Darwinian "random mutation followed by natural selection" mechanism.

 

DaveW

Nov 15, 2009

Someone> "umm... maybe the actual building of a space craft would account for the smallest inkling of common sense and rational thought, mr existentialist?"

EXACTLY. It is obvious that the Mustang was designed. A cell is much more intricate than the Mustang. So why then is it so absurd to suggest that it is the product of design?

 

Gordy

Nov 15, 2009

To whoever wrote the above: I understand the argument, but eugenics was a form of artificial selection not natural selection. Artificial selection has been practiced by farmers for thousands of years. Eugenecists may have used references to Darwin to justify their actions, but they did so in error.

"Those who believe that life has no ultimate meaning are more likely to practice eugenics than those who believe that life has meaning and value."
Do you think that scientists believe that life has no meaning? There are a great many religious scientists who would disagree with you. Indeed, there are a great many non-religious scientists who would also disagree with you!

You are equating an acceptance of natural selection with some kind of nihilism. That's completely unjustified and counterfactual.

 

Gordy

Nov 15, 2009

DaveW > "(2) Taken out of context. It was not meant as a scientific claim."
You used belief in a caring creator to differentiate ID proponents from mainstream scientists. I did not take it out of context. When I pointed out that both sides accept natural selection and questioned why only one side was accused of Nazism for doing so, you used a religious justification. That would suggest that you see ID as a religious point of view.

As for inferring design from the mechanisms you mentioned, do these mechanisms always result in beneficial effects? Are cells able to control these processes in response to environmental changes, as you seem to be suggesting?

Here's an example of non-random changes to cellular DNA that can cause a lot of harm:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrovirus
Does this suggest a caring designer to you?

 

Brian

Nov 16, 2009

Gordy > "There's no such thing as "overall" fitness, only fitness for the environment you happen to find yourself in. That's why we see different forms of life in different environments. Fitness is relative; a balance of costs and benefits." - That's too broad a brush because environmental changes can ebb & flow in a matter of days when antibiotic resistance is involved. Once the threat has passed, the temporary change to normalcy, the microbes without the change dominate the population.

Those with the change lose function they once had. Loss happens. But it isn't the slow upward climb imagined by Darwin. It's the desperate survival measure that destroys valuable existing structure to stop a threat. There is no climb there.

 

Brian

Nov 16, 2009

Gordy > "A good example of this in humans is sickle cell anaemia." - That old chestnut. If the entire population of Africa got sickle cell mutation, they would be saved from malaria but would they be better off? They would survive one threat then die out as a people.

Once again, that's like calling the cripple more fit because he doesn't get drafted.

 

Brian

Nov 16, 2009

Gordy > "Eugenecists may have used references to Darwin to justify their actions, but they did so in error." - They were in error but the fact remains. They were inspired by Darwin's philosophical and Malthusian implications. Darwin's cousin Francis Galton started the eugenics movement.

 

Brian

Nov 16, 2009

"Nazism is compatible with the Darwinian metaphysics, but that does not make Darwinists Nazis." - I'm glad we agree on something.

It could be said however, not all Darwinists of the period were Nazis but all Nazis were Darwinists.

 

Gordy

Nov 16, 2009

Brian wrote: "...environmental changes can ebb & flow in a matter of days when antibiotic resistance is involved. Once the threat has passed, the temporary change to normalcy, the microbes without the change dominate the population."
You're assuming that non-resistant bacteria survived the period of antibiotic exposure. That may or may not be the case.

 

Gordy

Nov 16, 2009

Brian: "...it isn't the slow upward climb imagined by Darwin."
Evolution has no direction, no goal. It is an ongoing process. There have been periods of mass extinction in the history of our planet, at least one of which wiped out every species that weighed more than a few kilograms. Lack of direction does not contradict natural selection.

 

Gordy

Nov 16, 2009



Brian: "If the entire population of Africa got sickle cell mutation, they would be saved from malaria but would they be better off? They would survive one threat then die out as a people."
That's why the incidence of sickle cell anaemia persists at a finely balanced level in malarial regions. The disease only develops in people who are homozygous for the sickle cell gene (i.e. those who have two copies of it). Heterozygous individuals remain healthy because their one "normal" copy makes up for their one sickle cell copy. It is the heterozugous condition that confers resistance to malaria. So incidence of the sickle cell gene is nothing like 100%, even in malarial regions. If you want to know more, try the genetics section of the Wikipaedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle-cell_disease#Inheritance
As I said, it's an ongoing balance of costs and benefits.

 

Gordy

Nov 16, 2009

Brian > Out of interest, what is the ID view of "overall" fitness? I can't imagine how fitness could be anything other than fitness for a particular environment.

 

DanDare

Nov 16, 2009

Brian "Once again, that's like calling the cripple more fit because he doesn't get drafted."

If all the able bodied were drafted and the majority of them killed before having babies, and if there were not equal killings amongst civilians, and if this continued for four of five generations, then inherited defects would be a selected trait.

 

DanDare

Nov 16, 2009

You don't need to use anything as subtle as sickle cell to demonstrate that "overall fitness" is rubbish. Take a perfectly well adapted fish out of the ocean and put it on the floor of your living room. If it had "overall fitness" the fish would experience no problem there.

 

DanDare

Nov 16, 2009

DaveW wrote "It is obvious that the Mustang was designed. A cell is much more intricate than the Mustang. So why then is it so absurd to suggest that it is the product of design?"

Complexity is not the signature of design. The signature is that an object suits a purpose, and the existence of that object is owed to the being that has the purpose in mind, and the creating being had thought out the physical attributes of the designed thing. We have evidence that humans did this with Mustangs, and we have never observed a Mustang assemble by other than human hands.

Cells on the other hand are only produced by other cells, and their ancestry traces back to simpler and simpler parent cells, until you get simple lipid vesicles and random polymers forming inside them. There is no evidence of design, no purpose, no purposeful creator, no designer and no need for one.

 

Brian

Nov 16, 2009

You're calling a genetic DISEASE an advantage. With advances like this who needs predators?

Where malaria is prominent, better use your advanced brain to get DDT and put the mosquito population in check than to rely on sickle cell disease to keep your population going.

I'm done here. Time to move on.

 

DaveW

Nov 16, 2009

DanDare> You are wrong. We do not have a lineage like you describe. We do have highly speculative scenarios.

You are right that complexity is not sufficient to infer design. However, like I said in one of my posts, the complexity and integration evident in DNA should be sufficient to infer design, at least with greater confidence than naturalistic origins.

 

DaveW

Nov 16, 2009

Gordy> I don't disagree with you. I am trying to make a distinction between various theories and their metaphysical implications. Many Darwinists and Atheists have concluded that life has no meaning, while many ID'ers have concluded that it does.

Interestingly, this is why many scientists say "creationism" rather than "creation." They want to marginalize the idea of creation as a belief system rather than a valid scientific idea.

Many people struggle with ID because they think it means "God did it." But ID is mute on the identity of the creator.

P.S. My last post here.

 

prhean

Nov 16, 2009

Casey, you really fleshed out the bigots on this one. If that was your intent, you are clever indeed. If your intent really was to "restore civility", good luck with that. There is no civility to be had among so many small minded folks.

 

torrin123

Nov 16, 2009

AAAAAAAHHH FLAME WAR!!! SCREAM SCREAM SCREAM SCREAM!!!!!

You all are so weird.

 

Gordy

Nov 16, 2009

DaveW wrote: "...this is why many scientists say "creationism" rather than "creation." They want to marginalize the idea of creation as a belief system rather than a valid scientific idea."

DaveW: "Many Darwinists..."

And you use the term Darwinist rather than biologist or scientist because... ?

DaveW: "Many Darwinists and Atheists have concluded that life has no meaning..."

Really? Why is it that I only ever hear that from religious people, not from atheists themselves? And what about religious people who accept evolution by natural selection? Not all biologists are atheists.

 

Gordy

Nov 16, 2009

Brian wrote: "You're calling a genetic DISEASE an advantage."

No, the disease (sickle cell anaemia) is not an advantage. Being a carrier of the disease is an advantage in malarial regions because carriers are both healthy AND resistant to malaria.

If you can't be bothered to try to understand this stuff, you're not really in a position to criticize it.

 

Gordy

Nov 16, 2009

DanDare > You're right, the fish example is certainly more immediate :)

 

AtheistGeorge

Nov 16, 2009

Gordy, you really need to read and think more carefully, and do your own research. Not only did DaveW say he was done here, you should be able to answer such basic questions on your own. And, some of your questions are so non-sensical, I can't imagine why anyone would even bother taking the time to answer when you won't take the time to think them through. Sorry for being blunt.

 

Gordy

Nov 16, 2009

AtheistGeorge > I'm not sure what your problem is.
Which "basic questions" do you think I should be able to answer on my own?
Which of my questions are non-sensical?
I have taken the time to think through waht other people have written, and I think my contributions show that.

 

Gordy

Nov 17, 2009

No response? OK, allow me to retort.

I can think of no reason why DaveW's last post should be exempt from criticism or questioning, especially when he makes flat out false assertions such as: "Many Darwinists and Atheists have concluded that life has no meaning." f he wants to make claims like that, he should be prepared to back them up.

Does anyone else think that "AtheistGeorge" is DaveW? ;)

 

Brian

Nov 17, 2009

Gordy > Here is a demonstration of overall fitness from a video by The Discovery Institute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BwWpRSYgOE

That's it. I'm gone.

 

Gordy

Nov 17, 2009

Thanks, Brian. I'm well aware that resistant strains may lose out to non-resistant strains in the absence of antibiotics. That makes my point for me: fitness is a function of environment. In an environment where the bacteria are exposed to antibiotics, the non-resistant strains are killed and only the resistant ones survive, i.e. the resistant strains are more fit for such an environment.

(By the way, the "no new species of bacteria in 150 years" claim is a bit dubious. Try googling "new species of bacteria" and you'll see what I mean!)

 

Gordy

Nov 17, 2009

Also, you haven't responded to my explanation of why sickle cell anaemia persists in malarial regions. ID proponents say they want to be taken seriously by science, but all too often refuse to engage in any scientific discussion that challenges their assumptions. In this case I used sickle cell as an example of how fitness is relative, you misunderstood, I corrected your misunderstanding but you ignored my explanation. Can you see why scientists find this frustrating?

 

Wheelwright

Nov 17, 2009

Of course fitness is relative. But relative to what exactly ? Relative to resistance against one specific antibiotic or relative to the organism's overall conditions it is living under ? I think he meant the latter.

He also raised a crucially important point (which you predictably ignored) that the changes conferring antibiotic resistance in bacteria are invariably a result of de-evolution (meaning broken genes, no new specific information, no new molecular machines or biochemical pathways).

And what I find frustrating is how people like you, who dare to call themselves scientists, fradulently peddle those miniscule, degenerative microbial changes as evidence for something untold orders of magnitude more complex.

 

Gordy

Nov 18, 2009

Wheelwright wrote: "Of course fitness is relative. But relative to what exactly ? Relative to resistance against one specific antibiotic or relative to the organism's overall conditions it is living under ?"
My whole point is that fitness is relative to whatever environment you happen to be in, not to some idealised "normal" environment. Bacteria in hospitals and bacteria in sewers are subject to very different selection pressures.

 

Gordy

Nov 18, 2009

Wheelwright wrote: "He also raised a crucially important point (which you predictably ignored) that the changes conferring antibiotic resistance in bacteria are invariably a result of de-evolution (meaning broken genes, no new specific information, no new molecular machines or biochemical pathways)."
Evolution is not directional, so de-evolution is a misleading term, but I do take your point about new information. Lenski's E. coli evolving the ability to metabolise citrate is an example of novel function evolving and then being selected for in a population. It is another microbial example though, so no doubt you won't be too happy with it...

 

Gordy

Nov 18, 2009

I've tried to use examples to establish that:
a) fitness is relative to environment
b) some mutations have positive effects on fitness (i.e. not all mutations are neutral or negative).

With the Lenski example we can add:
c) it is possible to evolve advantageous novel function by random mutation, and
d) advantageous novel function tends to spread in a population as a result of natural selection.

 

Gordy

Nov 18, 2009

...and even though I'm using simple examples, I'm still having to break my posts up because they're too long!

I've tried to deal with a few basic misconceptions, but you can't reasonably expect me to summarize all the evidence for evolution in a few short paragraphs. There are whole books full of evidence for evolution. If you want to go beyond the level I've attempted to explain, why not read one or two of them? Richard Dawkins' "The Greatest Show On Earth" and Jerry Coyne's "Why Evolution Is True" were both published this year. What have you got to lose? Even if you disagree with every word in them, it should help you to better understand what you're arguing against.

 

Gordy

Nov 18, 2009

Wheelwright wrote: "the changes conferring antibiotic resistance in bacteria are invariably a result of de-evolution (meaning broken genes, no new specific information, no new molecular machines or biochemical pathways)"

Actually, that's not true:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic_resistance#Mechanisms

Apologies, I should have picked up on that earlier but I got distracted by the relative v "overall" fitness thing.

 

Nov 18, 2009

"Is Bacterial Resistance
to Antibiotics an Appropriate Example of Evolutionary Change?"

The short answer- No.

But please read the article:

http://www.trueorigin.org/bacteria01.asp

Also Gordy, evolution is NOT being debated.

Evidence for "evolution" is NOT evidence for a mechanism.

Evidence for Common Descent is NOT evidence for a mechanism.

This debate is all about mechanisms!

And it is interesteing that neither Dawkins nor Coyne can present a testable hypothesis based on non-telic processes.


 

Gordy

Nov 18, 2009

To whichever anonymous creationist wrote the above > As I said above, if you'd prefer an example of novel function evolving in bacteria, look at Lenski's E. coli and the way they evolved the ability to metabolise citrate. Strangely, you seem to have ignored that in your post.

Since you'd like to debate mechanisms, what mechanisms does ID propose?

 

Alan

Nov 18, 2009

Gordy.

Check Michael Behe's Amazon blog to see the simple fallacy in your claims about E.Coli evolution:


"I discuss Lenski’s fascinating work in Chapter 7 of The Edge of Evolution, pointing out that all of the beneficial mutations identified from the studies so far seem to have been degradative ones, where functioning genes are knocked out or rendered less active. So random mutation much more easily breaks genes than builds them, even when it helps an organism to survive. That’s a very important point. A process which breaks genes so easily is not one that is going to build up complex coherent molecular systems of many proteins, which fill the cell."

(Michael Behe's Amazon blog)

 

Gordy

Nov 18, 2009

Alan > If you can give me a link to the appropriate post, I'll happily read it. In the meantime, as far as I'm aware these E. coli evolved the ability to transport citrate across their cell membrane, something that they were previously unable to do. That's novel function, whether you like it or not.

 

Wheelwright

Nov 19, 2009

Quote from Lenski paper regarding E-coli: "The ONLY known barrier to aerobic growth on citrate is its inability to TRANSPORT citrate under oxic conditions." ( http://www.pnas.org/content/105/23/7899.full ).

In other words: all the molecular machinery for metabolizing (digesting) citrate WAS ALREADY PRESENT in E-coli. The ONLY thing the backteria couldn`t do is TRANSPORING citrate in oxygen environment (it could already do so in oxygen-less environment). Sorry to get your hopes down, but you have been lied to. No novel function exists here. What most likely happened is that overexpressed gene(s) by brute-force overcame the inhibiting effect of oxygen on citrate transport. Here is Intelligent Design proponent`s take on the whole affair: http://behe.uncommondescent.com/page/3/ under the heading: `Multiple Mutations Needed for E. Coli`.

 

Gordy

Nov 19, 2009

Wheelwright > From Michael Behe's bog: "It seems likely that Lenski’s mutant will turn out to be either this gene or another of the bacterium’s citrate-using genes, tweaked a bit to allow it to transport citrate in the presence of oxygen. (He hasn’t yet tracked down the mutation.)"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/post/PLNK3U696N278Z93O

So:
1. At present we don't know what the mutation was, so we can only speculate as to the genetic basis of this observed change.
2. By Behe's own admission, these E. coli developed the ability to transport citrate in the presence of oxygen, something that they previously could not do. How can this not be considered a novel function?

 

Alan

Dec 1, 2009

A wise man once said:

"If you don't understand why the controversy over evolution is important, then consider this: Evolutionists are not, and never were, content to be free to pursue their silly religious ideas. Like so many religious movements, they want you to be subject to their beliefs. They insist evolution is a fact to which every student must accede, every scientist must pay homage, and every medical doctor must be indoctrinated. And they will use your tax dollars to do so..."

 

Alan

Dec 1, 2009

Gordy

Developing a "novel function" is not the same as providing evidence of the power of RM and NS to generate todays diversity of life. If a novel function happens to arise when some complex cellular machinery is trashed by a mutation, and if the resulting side effects happen to help the organim survive in a specific situation, then nothing has been proven that is controversial. This is called "microevolution".

Show me a detailed testable evolutionary pathway for the evolution of any COMPLEX biochemical system, such as the biochemistry of vision and you will have something. Otherwise, we're not even talking about a scientific theory.

 

Jan 11, 2010

projeksiyon
plazma kiralama
Projeksiyon Kiralama
Led ekran Kiralama
Simultane
Ses sistemi kiralama

 


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