Transcript of Washington Examiner interview with Vice President Mike Pence

Vice President Mike Pence: Well, I don’t see it as different than the last campaign except that we have our official duties that we have to attend to [and] continue to play the role that the president’s tasked me to play, whatever it be.

Washington Examiner: And what role is that, from a campaign standpoint? What does he ask you to do that he either doesn’t do as well or just can’t do because he’s got other things to do?

Pence: I think, back in 2016, David, I’ll never forget one of our first conversations. He told me, “You go north; I’ll go south. You go east; I’ll go west. In the last campaign, we tried … because we were getting to know each other. So, we tried to campaign together about once a week. But I think part of the winning strategy in 2016 was we just outworked them, and we’re going to outwork them again. And so, I think, for our part, we’re going to be getting on the bus as soon as we can, get back to more and more of the retail politics.

Washington Examiner: You’re the retail guy. He’s the show guy, right? And you’re the retail guy?

Pence: Well, nobody commands the stage like President Donald Trump, but he’s every bit the retail guy that I am. It’s just, I think for us, the fact that our footprint’s a little smaller, we can move around a little easier, we’ll get us into different places in the country. I think it’s just going to be a strategy of being out there, talking about the record, telling the story. Also, elections are about choices, and I don’t think that the choice has ever been clearer or the stakes have ever been higher. I believe that.

Washington Examiner: Let me ask you about the state of the campaign right now. In every poll that I have seen, and then in polls that aren’t public, you guys are having a tough time. You’re having a tough time in Georgia. The numbers in Texas aren’t as good as they used to be. The numbers in Arizona aren’t as good as they used to be. So, I know what your prediction is going to be, but can you talk to me about why you guys are having such a tough time right now and how you feel about that?

Pence: Well, I don’t put a lot of stock in the polls. In the last election, somebody told me that between Labor Day and Election Day, there were over a hundred different polls that were taken in the states or nationwide, and the president only led in a handful of them, and then we saw an incredible victory, historic victory, on Election Day. I sense people are more enthusiastic today than they were four years ago just because four years ago, it was about a candidate saying what he was going to do. He said he was going to rebuild the military, he was going to stand up for law and order, he was going to revive the economy with tax cuts, deregulation, and more American energy and better trade deals. He was going to appoint conservatives to our federal courts at every level. Now, we’re running on what President Trump, not just what more he’s going to do, but what he has, in fact, done. I mean, this is a “promises made, promises kept” campaign.

Washington Examiner: I think the question is not whether your voters are enthusiastic, because I wouldn’t disagree with you. It’s whether you have enough of them. Do you have enough of them? Your ticket, the president’s ticket with you on it, won suburban voters last time. Now, [given what happened] in 2018 and the fact that the polling for suburban voters right now is not looking good and that was part of your strength last time, do you have enough?

Pence: I don’t think there’s any question that when this campaign fully engages and we start to talk about the choice that the American people would face when they asked the question, “Who can revive this economy?” Is it President Trump, whose policies created more than 7 million jobs in our first three years of cutting taxes, rolling back regulation, unleashing energy, and fighting for fair trade? Or is it Joe Biden, who, a week ago, while our nation is beginning to recover from the worst pandemic in a hundred years, said that he was going to raise taxes by $4 trillion, that he’s going to restart the war on American energy, he’s going to embrace an avalanche of regulations and everything from healthcare to aspects of the Green New Deal, and I just think when people face that choice, people in the suburbs and in the cities and out in the country are going to know that we need four more years of a job creator in the White House. But I also believe public safety is going to continue to live large in this election.

Washington Examiner: Let me ask you about that. The president has definitely said that if Joe Biden is elected, they’re going to be tearing down statutes. He has said things could get very bad from the standpoint of public safety and mobs tearing down statues. The question I have is: That’s exactly what’s happening right now, and you guys are in charge. I’m not necessarily blaming you, but I’m asking the question if you’re telling voters, “Beware, this bad thing could happen if you elect this other guy,” couldn’t some voters look around and say, “Not that I’m blaming you, Mr. President, but it’s happening right now. So, I don’t see what the difference is”?

Pence: Well, the difference is right now, we have hundreds of investigations, dozens of prosecutions against people that have vandalized property and engaged in rioting, including the tearing down of statues. When rioters were setting fire to one of the oldest churches in America and defacing our national monuments, Joe Biden sent out a press release. President Trump sent in the National Guard. We quelled the violence. We secured our nation’s capital and called on governors around the country to do the same. And they’ve been responding. You’ve seen one governor after another, from Minnesota to other states around the country, have deployed the National Guard, and we fully supported that. The contrast is, with Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi, this is a president who understands our commitment is to uphold the rule of law — law and order. And Nancy Pelosi said today in a press conference when she was asked about rioters pulling down a statue in her hometown of Baltimore something to the effect of, “They will do what they will do.”

Washington Examiner: Yes: “People will do what people will do.”

Pence: Well, the president of the United States takes an oath to see that the laws are faithfully executed, not to say that “people that break the law will do what they will do.” And I think when the American people face this choice, they’re going to know that whether it’s jobs, whether it’s our national security, whether it’s commitment to conservative principles, conservative judges, and a commitment to law and order that President Donald Trump is the right choice for the American people.

Washington Examiner: A question related to that that I wanted to ask you: Do you think it’s a mistake, or has been a mistake, to equate the removal and tearing down of Confederate figures who tried to rip the Union asunder to the founders who, however flawed, laid the foundation for the kind of country that we are and are trying to be? In other words, you can complain about Jefferson, but he wrote the Declaration that we all aspire to be. Confederates and those honored tried to rip that all up, and I’m wondering if you think it’s a mistake to conflate the two, even though mob violence tearing down any statutes is not how things should be done.

Pence: I think tearing down statues is not a protest. Engaging in public debate in your community about what appropriate displays are is the American way, and I wouldn’t begrudge any community or any state to determine what people ought to be remembered and memorialized.

Washington Examiner: Do you, personally, see a difference?

Pence: What I see when I think of American history is a steady march toward a more perfect union. From the founding of the country, we articulated a set of ideals that were not real at the time, but they were aspirational, and I think those high ideals by God’s grace have resulted in the American people moving ever forward through a bloody Civil War that ended slavery on the continent, through two world wars, through a civil rights movement, that we celebrate the incredible progress to the present [inaudible.] I truly do believe that this is the greatest nation on Earth and that what the president said at Mount Rushmore was about, “We are going to celebrate our history as a steady march for the fulfillment of the ideals that Americans cherish.”

Washington Examiner: Let me ask you about the coronavirus. Obviously, this has been a major project of yours. Who’s in charge? Now, I know that the administration and you and the president are in charge. But how much of this is reliant on governors to follow the best advice that your task force can give with all of your experts? And how much of it is on you, so that when people look at what’s happening in Texas and Florida and Arizona and Mississippi, states that initially were much better off but are now having a big problem, should people look to you and the president? Or should they be pointing fingers at their governors?

Pence: Well, first, President Trump has been the man in charge of America’s response to the coronavirus. But from early on, when the president tapped me to lead the White House coronavirus task force that he set up before January was over, he made it clear that he wanted a whole-of-government approach, that we wanted to bring the full resources of the federal government. But I actually think one of the reasons he tapped me to do this, David, was not just because I was just his vice president but because I was a governor, because I had been through some health issues, significant health issues, in the state of Indiana that we worked with the CDC, we worked with federal officials, and we were able to deal with it. And so, right out of the gate, pulling the governors together, working with them under what the president envisioned. And it was manifested when he put FEMA in the lead of our national response was that we would have a federally supported, state-managed, locally executed response to the coronavirus so that we used the vast resources of the federal government to reinvent testing — now, nearly 40 million tests — to create hundreds of millions of medical supplies, masks, gowns, and PPE, to transform factory lines, to the production of ventilators, so that no American that needed a ventilator was ever denied a ventilator. And from early on, having the pharmaceutical companies in this country begin immediately to work, beginning in February, on therapeutics and vaccines, and that’s the strength of the federal government. And then giving the guidance through the 45 days to slow the spread, marshaling bipartisan support in Congress for our rescue packages for families and for businesses.

But we’ve implemented this in such a way as to make sure that states have what they need or are empowered to have what they need because one of the things that I think most Americans recognize is that while many in the media like to put one big curve up, the reality is the coronavirus pandemic emerged in the northeast, and we responded to it there. Then it emerged in the northwest; we responded to it there, and it emerged in the greater New York City area, New Jersey, Connecticut. We responded to it there. Then New Orleans, then Michigan. And now, as we’ve seen cases emerging in the Sun Belt, again, we’re focusing the resources empowering governors because each area is unique.

Washington Examiner: Why do you think it happened? Was it because of the mass protests, even a peaceful protest, with people gathering? Was it young people in bars? Was it a combination? Do you think it’s something you could have avoided?

Pence: I want to take a little issue with the “something happened.” Early in the pandemic, we were actually only testing people who were of a certain age, usually elderly with symptoms, and healthcare workers and first responders. We set up the new testing system that focused on the most vulnerable and focused on people that were caring for people dealing with the coronavirus. But because of the public-private partnership that the president created, by the springtime, we had achieved a place where, literally — I heard in Florida in the month of May, the governor told me then that they had significantly more testing capacity than they had demand. So, we were able to test a significant amount more people who were asymptomatic. There were people that were going back to work. Their employer said, simply, “Go get a test.” I was told that in Texas, as they were starting up football practices in the summer again, the teams were being tested. And one of the different things about what we’re seeing today in the Sun Belt and what we saw in the greater New York area or in other areas of the country is now, roughly half of the people that are being diagnosed with the coronavirus are under the age of 35.

Washington Examiner: So, is it the administration’s position that this really isn’t a spike in so much as it’s really the fact that because we’re testing more people, we’re aware of more people having this, even though many Americans are interpreting it as a spike, as a resurgence?

Pence: Because of the testing that we’re able to do, we have found more cases. It is inarguable that our testing system has contributed to the number of asymptomatic cases that we’ve been able to identify. But that’s a good thing because when you identify as someone who has coronavirus and doesn’t have symptoms, you can prevent them inadvertently exposing others, and you can slow the spread. But make no mistake about it: There’s been a rise in positivity and a rise of cases in the Sun Belt states. And this is the reason why we’ve been working very closely with governors. As to the why it happened: Something changed somewhere in the middle of June.

Frankly, Georgia, Florida, Texas, Arizona, were all reopened. They all started reopening early May. We didn’t see a rise in cases. We didn’t see a rise in positivity. Everything was very solid. And so, we actually think it was a combination of factors. The protests may have played a role. Memorial Day weekend gatherings may have played a role. But one of the theories is that in the southern states with a very warm summer underway, younger people congregating indoors in air conditioning. And that’s the reason why I think you’ve seen governors, with our full support, take steps to close bars, to close spaces where younger people congregate.

And I don’t know if you heard yesterday, but through this morning, we are beginning to see early indications in Arizona and in Florida that the positivity rate is leveling. And it’s a sign that people need to keep doing what they’re doing, keep wearing the mask, social distancing, wash their hands, avoiding those settings where they congregate, and we’ll get through this.

Washington Examiner: Do you have any concerns about the Republican convention in Jacksonville going off as planned? Do you think that some things may need to be reconsidered in terms of how delegates gathered, what venues you use, and what kinds of events you hold?

Pence: I’m going to be in Jacksonville Saturday and meeting with organizers, supporters of the convention. We’re very excited about going to Jacksonville. But I think the president said just a couple of days ago we’ll be flexible, and I must tell you that I’ve been very impressed. It seems some of the planning that’s underway to make sure that the environment is a safe and healthy environment for all of the participants and for everybody that would be there in any capacity. So, we’ll put the health of all of our delegates first and everyone that’s there supporting the convention, but we continue to remain hopeful that as we see strong leadership across the Sun Belt dealing with this that we’ll be able to gather in Jacksonville.

Washington Examiner: I wanted to ask you one healthcare question. Can your administration make the case that you’re going to protect preexisting conditions and a couple of these other things that were implemented in Obamacare if you are trying to undo Obamacare through the courts without an immediate placement plan that’s going to exist? So that if you’re successful in the courts, it goes away, the preexisting conditions protection goes away, and even though your position is, of course, that you support these things without an immediate plan in place that’s legislated immediately, people would be without those protections. So, how do you make that case to voters that are concerned?

Pence: From the campaign in 2016, the president made it clear that we were going to repeal and replace Obamacare with healthcare reform that lowers the cost of health insurance without growing the size of the government. Obamacare is a disaster, and it is striking to me that Joe Biden and their platform have embraced expanding Obamacare. We see premiums going up, huge deductibles. It is expensive coverage. It’s bad coverage. The American people know it. What the president and I are determined to do is take the case to the American people this fall and lay out a vision, not just for growing the economy, not just for merit-based immigration, but for healthcare reform that’s built on free market principles of choices, health savings, and counseling, the kind of measures that really empower people to buy health insurance across state lines.

But to the point of your question, which is a very good question: We really believe the first objective is to sweep away Obamacare because it’s unconstitutional. I believe the day that I voted against it, the day that the Supreme Court upheld it, you can never believe the federal government had the authority to order people to buy something on the private market place. And that’s why we ended the mandate at the heart of Obamacare. But sweeping that away, we believe, creates the opportunity to then do real healthcare reform and pass legislation deals with preexisting conditions, and the president’s made it very clear.

Washington Examiner: But you realize there will be a gap there, right?

Pence: Not necessarily, not necessarily. We actually think there’s a real opportunity to literally bring together divergent voices in the Congress and say, “We all agree. We’re going to protect preexisting conditions. Now, let’s formulate healthcare policies and reforms that will close the gap and give people better healthcare than Obamacare,” which won’t be hard.

Washington Examiner: Voting by mail. If somebody in America this November is afraid to go to the polls or if there are fewer polls in some states — polling places — and people therefore prefer to vote by mail, does the administration, does the campaign, have a problem with that? And does the message about voter fraud make it harder for your organizers to get your supporters to lock in these votes, vote absentee, vote by mail?

Pence: Absentee ballots are a time-honored tradition, and I voted by absentee. Millions of Americans vote by absentee ballot, and we fully support that. [What] the president raises is the issue of unsolicited mass distribution of ballots and the potential for voter fraud, particularly in states that allow … ballot harvesting? There’s literally states — California’s one of them — that allows people to go and accumulate ballots that are completed and turn them all in.

Well, if you mail out 20 million ballots, the potential for fraud — we had a case in 2012 — you can look it up — in the state of Indiana where a group of Democrat operatives were prosecuted after the election because they were found to have been filling out, falsifying, absentee ballots. So, we’re all for voter integrity. We believe in [an] absentee ballot system where people will request a ballot and give a basis for why they will not be participating in person, but we’re going to continue to oppose efforts around the country for a mass distribution of mailed ballots because we think it’s a potential for tremendous voter fraud.

Washington Examiner: If a state wants to mass send out applications for absentee ballots, is that something that you oppose?

Pence: Well, it may be a distinction without a difference. I think virtually every state in the Union has an absentee ballot system where you can apply for an absentee ballot mailed to your home, and we’re going to have a great absentee ballot program in our campaign and urge people who choose to request a ballot to do so, but we’ll also continue to stand for the time-honored principle. One person, one vote.

Washington Examiner: Your predecessor, Joe Biden, was in Pennsylvania today unveiling his economic recovery plan focused on buying American, manufacturing in America.

Pence: Sounds familiar.

Washington Examiner: Maybe they’re going to try and compete on more favorable ground than [Hillary] Clinton did. I mean, do you think that Joe Biden can get anywhere with this message because at least he’s speaking the right language in the right places, which the last Democratic nominee failed to do?

Pence: Look, under the Obama-Biden administration, it was an era of economic surrender to China. But when we took office, half of our international trade deficit was with China. And I remember seeing Joe Biden at one point scoff at the idea that China was a competitor of the United States. The NAFTA agreement’s another example. I mean, one of the great contributions to this nation was that President Trump was elected to office and was able to dismantle and renegotiate the trading agreement with Canada and Mexico that finally took out the incentive of shipping jobs south of the border.

And yet, those are all the policies — I mean, [the] Joe Biden-Obama administration supported TPP, Trans-Pacific Partnership, with this candidate … I think it was a candidate who turned to the president, who was the one that stepped up and said, “We’re not doing the Trans-Pacific Partnership.” Eventually, the Democratic candidate followed, but the Obama-Biden administration were all championing another massive international trade agreement. I think it’s going to be very difficult for Joe Biden to make the case that he’s going to fight for American jobs when you look at the record of the Obama-Biden administration, as well as 40 years in public service.

Washington Examiner: Do you think TPP might have helped you box China in, economically?

Pence: Let me tell you something. I was on a learning curve with all of this myself. When I was in Congress, I supported virtually every trade agreement that ever kind of came before the Congress. In one of our very early conversations, one of the things that the president said to me during the campaign was that these multinational trading agreements are not in America’s interest because you lose leverage.

And what the American people have seen is the president has pulled out of that, but then, we’ve been in trade negotiations with Japan. We renegotiated our trade agreement with South Korea. We’re ready to get started beginning efforts to negotiate a trade agreement with the U.K. We’re even talking to the EU about a second trade agreement with them, and, of course, the USMCA is the largest trade deal in American history. So, I really do believe that the economic record of this president is going to sell the American people. But I think it’s a bigger distinction. Look, we’ve just gone through the worst pandemic in a hundred years. The American economy, showing the strength of the foundation that the president poured in the first three years and the resilience and character of the American people. The American economy’s already added back 7 million jobs out of the 22 million jobs that we’ve lost. In two short months, 7 million jobs [have been] created. The American economy is coming back, and President Trump, we’re going to be working with the Congress in another relief bill for families and businesses, support for states and healthcare workers. But the president, he also wants a payroll tax cut because what we want to do is continue to build on the pro-growth policies that created 7 million jobs in our first three years. We know that’s the prescription for bringing the economy all the way back and laying a foundation for unparalleled prosperity in the next four years.

Contrast that with Joe Biden. He talks about raising taxes by $4 trillion. He talks about a massive avalanche of regulation. He talks about ending fracking, starting a war on coal all over again, and wants to go back to the economic policies that resulted in us shipping jobs overseas. I think when the American people go into that voting booth, in November of this year, as we continue, every day, to make progress on this pandemic, and they ask the question: “Who’s going to be able to rebuild this economy, stand with our military, stand with law enforcement, protect the liberties enshrined in our Constitution?” They’re going to vote for four more years of President Donald Trump.

Washington Examiner: Thank you, sir.