Depending on which military expert you talk to, Donald Trump’s comments in a New York Times interview suggesting U.S. defense of a NATO ally would depend on whether countries “fulfilled their obligations” is either a profoundly misguided statement that sends a dangerous message, or routine campaign rhetoric that raises a legitimate concern about NATO members pulling their weight.

In the first group you find former supreme NATO commander retired Adm. James Stavridis, now dean of the The Fletcher School at Tufts University.